An Interview with Rick Green
The Firestone Files: Letters to My Grandchildren — Dr. Chris L. Firestone
January 12, 2026 · Episode 22 · 49:16
https://drchrisfirestone.com/episode/an-interview-with-rick-green/

Transcript is auto-generated from YouTube captions and lightly formatted; it may contain errors.

And we need to bring back the Greek ostriization. We have we have to be willing to say that is so poisonous that I I shun that and I do not encourage people to go listen and I don't encourage even an invitation to debate that particular person because of that poison. Hey everybody, welcome to the Firestone Files. I am Dr. Chris Firestone and today we have a super special guest, Rick Green, now from Patriot Academy and a variety of other endeavors. He's a lawyer. He's a He's a former legislator. He's um an educator and uh got him here on the Firestone File. So, welcome. Nobody's going to want to listen to me now.

You told him I'm a lawyer and a politician. The two worst categories you get. No, I'm kid. Great to be here, man. Absolutely. It's so cool to have you here. We had a near miss about two or three years ago when I was in San Antonio and I was trying to see Patriot Academy and get to meet you. You were not available at that time, but I did get to see the academy there and and uh um and you reached out recently saying, "Hey man, I got 10,000 emails and I finally saw yours and can I come see you while I'm in Dallas?"

Well, perfect timing. Yeah. Yeah. So, super excited to have these two worlds coming together. the Patriot Academy world and and and in in your leadership there and of course the Turning Point Education Prepier. Yeah. Um world, which is really much younger in many ways than what you've done out there uh with with with Patriot Academy. But so excited to finally be able to talk with you here. Yeah. Um you and I have kind of parallel lives in some way. We're both um been married a while. We've have kids. You've actually got a couple grandkids. I don't yet, but uh maybe I'll be Come, brother. That's so cool.

I came to this out of the academy. So, I feel like I'm relatively new in the spaces that you were really comfortable in. Now, I was uh I you know, I I had I got married 33 years ago. We decided to go overseas. I studied I got a PhD in philosophy, went to Trinity International University and taught philosophy for 25 years and really had my head in the ivory tower. Yeah. And um and uh this space of of training young people in in in the Bible, the western intellectual tradition, but significantly in the founding documents and civic stuff. That's relatively new to me. Um what happened to me was co our school started to show decline.

Um and I uh I started I I met this guy named Hutz Herzburg. Yeah. Was telling me about all that he's doing to try to save America. Him and of course Charlie Kirk and and all of that going on. and um he convinced me that maybe that was a time for me to get out of the ivory towers and start training young people directly on these foundational elements. And so I've only been at this say three years, you know, uh pulling out of the ivory towers as it were and getting into this space of training this group of, you know, for us it's 18 to 20 year olds.

Um but you come out of I understand a more legal background. Yeah. and actually went into the civics world or into legislature and and government and so forth. That's all interesting to me because you were doing that well before I even thought of doing it. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about your journey and how that sort of I I predates mine even in this whole Well, first I want to say thank God for Hudson and for convincing you of that because I I I truly think this is the tip of the spear. what you and I are both doing and and and what what Turning Point Prep's doing, what Patriot Academy is doing, what Summit's now doing, Leaders Academy in Hot Springs.

I mean, these organ these these this new model, I think, is what's absolutely necessary, and I'm not exaggerating when I say this, to save the country. I mean, this this is the tip of the spear to raise the leaders that can win over the next generation. I think that's what we're all we're all attempting to do. And and so, I'm just glad that that that you're doing it. Yeah. For me, it was it started off I was a legislator in Texas and I just got really frustrated with I was young.

I was 20, you know, 27 when I went into the legislature and I was shocked at how little grounding there was in con even the concept of conservatism or why we believe what we believe. Frankly, in Western civilization and and what created this, you know, what got us to the point that we are and watching people claim to be conservative then vote for price fixing or claim, you know, it was just it was weird for me. I I I thought I was going to go in the legislature and be, you know, Republicans line up over here, Democrats line up over here and we debate the issues of the day and the best idea wins.

And it was nothing like that. And I found that actually on the even on the Republican side was where I had the most opposition to to core principles, right? It was trying to take an approach to legislation from a principled approach instead of just who's lobbying, where's the money, and you know, it it just really surprised me. It was a handful, but not many. And so at 27 I said, you know, actually my dad was the one I was complaining to my dad and uh and actually you you might get a kick out of this. My dad says to me, I'm calling him from the House floor of the Texas House saying, "Dad, I'm explaining all this my complaints." And he goes, "Well, Rick, you need to you need to do what Bill Clinton did." And I said, "Dad, you're going to have to explain that. What exactly do you mean?"

And he said, "No, no, no. You need to do a governor school." He had a governor school in Arkansas and he would bring in the best of the best all over from all over the state for three weeks in the summer and indoctrinate them with leftwing philosophy. Why can't you do that and teach them the right things, you know, teach them the founding father's philosophy and the biblical worldview and all of So that's basically what we did.

We started Patriot Academy 25 years ago with the idea of let's bring the tip of the spear in for a week and give them, you know, this foundation, but let them do it in a state capital where they're actually getting to be a legislator and it's a little bit more entertaining and and real. And so 25 years later now we we we decided a week's not enough. We need we need to have them for a whole year. And so that that's how we ended up where we are. Well, you and I have some definite parallels then because I'm now an Arkansas guy. That's right. You you came out of Arkansas to Texas. I guess I came out of Arkansas to Texas as well just to help with prepar here this year. But um and it's funny because at Champion we just uh merged with Parkplace Baptist Church, which is now one of our ministries, which was Bill Clinton's church.

No kidding. I didn't know that. So, the parallels are astounding. Um, yeah. So, we're uh we're doing sort of the same thing on the ground there in Hot Springs uh with Champions. So, super cool. Well, I I I kind of wanted to I I think we're going to get there and get to the sort of what you're doing today with Patriot Academy and some of your other adventures, but you know, one of the things that interests us in the Firestone Files is family. Yeah. in his um you know um uh country and civics and other things like that. When I was uh you know get starting out almost at the same time as you and I started at Trinity in 1999 we were homeschooling.

Yeah. And um you know my wife was a trained teacher and we weren't really plugged into any other things except we were both educators. Yeah. And I came at it as a philosopher. So I taught in the house you know philosophical stuff we had our dinner table was a place where we learned a lot how does a lawyer or person with a different sort of you our conversations were like you know um you know things like you know here's a question regarding you know can God create a uh you know can he how many angels can he put on the head of a pin do you think or whatever else I mean a bunch of stuff just to get the kids talking. How did that look in your family?

Okay, the best example I can think of is I remember my my oldest son Trey, he's like 10, and we're sitting around the table talking about why it's immoral that we have to rent our property from the government. So, why aren't we paying property taxes to the government? If we own the property, don't we own the property? And so it's similar in a way maybe a little bit more uh definitely not as academic but same type of you know how did how did how did God design this thing and who has the rights to certain things and who owns whatever it is and if they own it then what's the responsibility that comes with it.

We always thought the dinner table was absolutely the best place to learn those things and to be able to have those conversations and and it was it was you know at the time when we were homeschooling probably a lot like with you it was just starting to take off like it was when I was a kid and homeschooled everybody frowned on you and thought you know but they would say to my mom I remember my mom would always respond to them they'd say what a sacrifice she always stopped people said no it's an investment I'm investing in the next generation and then our you know when we started that sort of thing and and it was almost My my wife actually said when when Trey, our oldest, when it was time for him to go to school, you know, she said, "I just can't imagine handing him over to somebody else for eight hours a day and I could be teaching him all these other things or just having that time with him."

But that was kind of the at the time when it was starting to become more acceptable in the community, partly because the results, right? Our kids were getting better scores on everything and the colleges started seeking out the homeschool kids because they were just better self-starters and and had been able to do class on their own. And um but man, I think the dinner table, this going to sound cliche and I'm sure I'm stealing it from some mentor of mine down the road back then. I can't remember, but I always said even when I was in office, it's not nearly as important what's happening in the White House or the state house as what's happening in your house.

Yes. I really think it begins there. I think if we don't do that part well, we can pass all the legislation in the world. It's not going to mean anything. Yes. I know some of the stuff I've read about your approach, you know, is is is basically saying as much. you know, looking at Samuel Adams and others of the founders talking about the fact that this this, you know, our constitution's written for a moral moral and religious people, not not for the kind of uneducated, chaotic or anarch Yeah.

anarchy uh that we're beginning to see in various corridors of the the academy today. Um, and so yeah, I think we we sort of I think we were more of I don't want to say accidentally falling into my wife was a good teacher. She was a trained teacher. We said, "Why don't we give it a try?" Yeah. And it just we saw the results. And uh, you know, we lived in Deerfield, which has a great educational system, but and people say, "You homeschool even in the midst of that." And I go, "Well, we got the best teacher. That's the way I like to look at."

And then you get spoiled to the extra time with them, right? just the and the freedom to get to go do things, take a trip and and not I noticed that in your story there some journeys that you took. Uh we just figured if you're if you can go stand on the battlefield instead of just read about it in a book, you remember it more and the you know you can play play act stuff out and and and it sticks with the kids more and man when you're homeschooling you get to do all of that you want. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Now I have to say just as a caveat my wife did about 90% of that and I did like 10%.

Me too brother. Hey, listen. When I say we homeschooled, I really mean my wife homeschooled and I went outside and played baseball with the kids. Yeah, that's kind of the way I I think I taught things like maybe a little bit of logic, a little bit of uh art, or I'd take them on journeys. Yeah, math was math was the one thing that that she would sometimes turn them over to me. And uh she she uh she was a little shocked one day when she came home and I had the kids sitting around the table playing poker. And she said, "Why aren't you playing poker with our children?"

And I said, 'I'm teaching them math and I'm teaching them how to read a person's body language. I'm not sure that's the don't do that. Okay, that's not Wow. Well, you know, one of the things on the Firestone Files, I have this little tagline at the at the back end of it saying uh letters to my grandchildren. I actually don't have any grandchildren yet, but I want my son who's my producer is says, "Look, why don't we start archiving while you still have clear memory of all these things on on a podcast, you know, some of the things you want to say to your grandkids?" Do you have any stuff that has emerged out of your own background that that you say to your grandkids or do you uh how would you advise me?

And that's a great question. That's that's as good as like I started saying to people in speeches instead of what's your freedom worth I'd say what's your grandchild's freedom worth and they think gener because I think the way you ask that makes me think about if if I'm going to use my few minutes you know what would I say to my grandchildren if I'm I may be dead and gone and they're going to be facing problems we don't even we can't even predict we know the nature of man doesn't change but their problems might look a little different than ours what would I say to my grandchildren wow oh be curious Study hard, be dangerous.

Yes. Be willing to risk. Um, you know, I think about Jefferson's words to his nephew, uh, question with boldness even the existence of God. Not in order to doubt God, but so that you study it so hard. Yes. I'm confident that if you do that, that if you if you question that and you study that hard, you're going to come to the conclusion, not only does God exist, he's involved in our daily lives, and you'll be a better advocate for him. Yeah. Why why are we afraid of the truth? you know, all truth is God's truth as it were and uh the Socratic method Yeah.

being asking the hard questions. We we were doing it around the dinner table in different ways. I was thinking about that when you said that even we always that was one of the things we did was we made sure no question was off limits. We we would never chastise them for asking what others might call an inappropriate question. It was always like, "Hey, whatever you got, throw it throw it our way." And we may not have the answer, but we'll help you find the we'll go find it together if we need to. Right. Right. Well, I just wanted to make sure we discussed a little bit about the family.

Um because both of us are big believers in that. We love our kids and we really do believe that wisdom bids that we train them up. Yeah. So that when we're getting older, they're coming in right behind us. And so that's super cool. Um, you know, I in terms of your story, I I gave you a little like, uh, tipping point for me was COVID and the the my my school phasing out and, um, the cultural sort of challenges we all saw coming and on steroids really during COVID and after. Um, but you you made a kind of change earlier than that. What what what was the tipping point for you in terms of being in private say law? Yeah.

And public service and then education. What what what where was that tipping point? I had a couple of them man. One of them was in college. I was I was doing a I started a college Republicans club. I was out of a little school out in West Texas, Angelo State, and um Desert Storm had just happened. A bunch of my buddies had gone over to fight and we were sitting around going, you know, all right, we're not fighting, but what could we do for them?

And so we did this candlelight vigil rally at the campus and spent, you know, a bunch of time skipping class putting this thing together and we did this thing and these moms of some of our friends came up afterwards in tears saying, "Thank you for honoring our our sons." And for me that was an epiphany moment that you know, you can make a difference in people's lives if you'll just pay attention to what's going on and look for where that need is and spend the time and it's not always going to be the path that you're taught in the classroom or what everybody else is is doing. And so from that point forward, man, I was always looking for a way to get involved, make a I wanted it to matter.

I wanted to whatever I was doing, I wanted there to be it didn't have to be significant, but it had to matter. It had to be it was going to make a difference in in people's lives. And and I know we're supposed to be, you know, the John Quincy Adams thing, duty is ours, results are God's, but my and maybe it's my flesh side. I don't know. But I I love seeing that it it it touched somebody. You know, that's why I think part of what we get a great reward in doing what we're doing now is when a kid at 19, 20 years old, when that light bulb comes on.

Yes. And they they get it and they catch something that you're throwing their way there. I I just feel like there's no better reward. I mean, to me, that is just magic. Yeah. There's something about, you know, the passion, you know, we oftentimes put it out with our the wrote way in which we teach or the way we approach things where I remember uh my daughter used to be a voracious reader. So much so that I I would ask friends, they said, "What do we do? It's a problem." And I remember one of my theologian friends, Kevin Vanhuser, said, "It sounds like she's passionate about that."

And we wish our kids were passionate about something, you know, in life. And so finding that moment where you can light that fire and you know, that's one of the things I've learned just in my short time here at Prepier is that students are coming hungry and all it takes is a, you know, an opportunity and kindred people getting together and um and they're feeling that that desire for making it count, you know, and I and I think that's one of the things in the wake of Charlie's assassination is that we're hearing so much from, you know, 16 to to even 30 age range saying, man, I've rethought everything I had planned on doing with my life. It's may it's been one of those epiphany moments where people have stopped and said, you know, what if what if I only have 15 years left? What am I going to do to make it count? or wow, he spoke fearlessly.

No matter what, I'm no longer going to be silent. Like, it's made something h something's happening, man. There's a there's a significant shift happening right now. And we get to be at the forefront of trying to shepherd a lot a lot of what those kids are asking to go do. Right. It's a what a privilege. That's right. That's right. And so one of the things I remember reading uh in your materials was, you know, eternal principles as being a concept. You know, I we talk about as biblical foundations, but when you're trying when when students are looking for a meaningful life and they're wanting to approach issues, they see problems, but they always don't know how to resolve them.

Getting them back in the word, back into stuff that really matters, the what I what philosophers call metaphysics, right? It's the virtue stuff. That's right. It's the um it's the stuff like freedom, the ideals, it's the laws of nature and nature is God. I mean it's it's you know and I think with the kids I I don't know if you've experienced this with the students this semester but I have found that getting them to even just instead of us saying this is the way it is getting them to say get getting them to ask with us you know what's worked and what hasn't worked.

When have you seen somebody in a country or in a society put a policy in place that actually did line up with the laws of nature and nature's God and then people experienced blessings? And then when have you seen them do something that went against the laws of nature and nature's God and they experienced a falling apart in that society and getting them to just see that and see that there are principles, eternal principles that there are way laws of nature that God put in place. Yes.

That if we line up with them, man, it's there's some blessings there. Yeah. Well, you know, one of the way philosophers talk about that is, you know, the difference between nominalism and realism. We're living in a society where it's kind of name it and claim it. You you you you can you can choose your own identity, whatever you feel. You can whatever you're feeling like. You can re reconstitute your nature in order to be who you want to be and so forth. But those of us who are realists want to say, "No, God has inherently put structures into the world."

And it's testified to in the scriptures and and um and so kicking against those goats are not all are not going to be in your best interest, right? And learning to be patient, learning to understand yourself over time in light of those realities. Yeah. I think are is a super important it is. And you know, I don't know if you're noticing this too, but but the non-believers are starting to feel enough pain from the craziness, right? The whole the whole thing that you just described where anything goes, everything's okay. You make up your own reality in your own world. I think that's why you have now have the Joe Rogan and the Elon Musks of the world saying this isn't working.

That might not be a good idea. There's got to be a better way. You know, Elon calls himself a cultural Christian now because he's basically doing the Ben Franklin thing. He's looking at the Christians and going, "Hey, y'all make pretty good neighbors." You know, I kind I kind of want you in my neighborhood because you're not crazy. So, I think that's a good thing. I think the pain has turned turned them to a point where they're they're willing to listen. They're willing to at least have the conversation. Yeah. I mean, Charlie was a genius at pointing that out. Oh, yeah. Um, you know, he would he would get questions from atheists.

He even get conservative atheists and say, "How how do you how do you ground that? How do you and so he was he's just, as you know, a genius master at uh at and he worked hard to get there, right? That's what I tell these kids now, you know, because a lot of them feel like he's a one of a kind. He'll never be another one." I I like no look look at where he was at 17 or 18. He was hungry and he spent years studying the things that people that are 80 years old never went never went back and looked at. He studied hard and he had wonderful mentors in his life that pointed him and helped guide him. I mean that's he was Yes. I believe he was gifted. No doubt about that.

But without that hard work and without being willing to use what God had given him, he wouldn't have been as good as he was. No. Absolutely. Yeah. when we when I was working on the curriculum, I bounced ideas off of Charlie, but a lot of the distilling of his thought is what's gone into this. But there's some overlaps clearly with what Patriot Academy is doing. I know you guys are focused on the original, you know, the founding documents, the original uh uh structures, you know, the the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, the Federalist Papers, and those kinds of things. Uh and you're also if I'm you know reading correctly again I'm relatively new to the field.

Um you're you're also looking at those key principles that are undergurting you might saw the philosophical principles that are undergirling those things like limited government or um you know uh individual liberties and and and things like that. um where you know we're we're doing a bit of a deeper dive if you will in the western intellectual tradition and Old and New Testament you know explicitly as a foundation but I think there's plenty of kind of synergies and overlap.

I love that though because that's, you know, I I do see this incredible overlap where I think we could do some cool stuff together too because that depth and then and then figuring out, okay, now how do you apply limited government and individual liberty based on the history of what made Western civilization work in the first place?

Where should we be drawing these lines and how do we through civil discourse? You know, as Patrick Henry said, according to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. Okay, we want to we want to debate it, but the point is, as he said, arrive at the truth. So, we got to figure out where that that line is of what I mean, I've been arguing with commissioners over this, like property rights. Okay, I've got my property rights and I should get to do with my land what I want as long as I don't harm my neighbor, but then if you're afraid I might harm my neighbor, do you use government regulation to prevent me from trying things?

Anyway, it's it's it's the application of all these things where the rubber meets the road that I think we've got to equip these people. Well, that you guys have really embraced that. I mean, in the structure, the buildings that you're building down there, the opportunities for them to actually get a feel for what it's like to apply these principles in action. Yeah. I mean, to be inside a constitutional republic and and know how it really works.

Yeah. Tell us a little bit more about some of those practical things that you're doing. Well, we built our legislative hall to match the Texas House because that's where I served, you know. So, we had some Amish carpenters come in and and they replicated the the Texas House DAS and and our committee rooms and all that. And the reason for that is we want them to feel exactly what it's like to make legislation. If you're in a constitutional republic, who gets to make the law and what's that look like and what are the what are the limitations of your authority?

So, so even getting them to recognize most Americans today right now, they think you elect a congressman or you elect a a state rep, they can make any law they want. It's they think pure republic instead of realizing, no, no, no, we're a constitutional republic. That congressman has limited authority right here.

Right. And so we teach our kids if you're in a in a legislative process, the first question is, do I have authority to even consider this issue and then write a good bill and then go debate that bill and then figure out how to win people over and how do you put a coalition together and how to get So all of those pieces end up being valuable to them in whatever they go into in life, but best of all, they will be a good citizen. They'll be good at picking a legislator that they're going to vote for. They'll be good at going and testifying at committee or school board or whatever it might be. We just want them to be engaged in their government and and and to do that they got to know how it works.

My goodness. So, is that a oneweek deal? Is that three week? Is it a whole year? What what what are the You guys do it all. Take your pick. Uh we do these little three-day regional, what we call regionals in state capitals around the country, and that gives a student at least a chance to get a a taste of it for three days. And the cool thing is, I think you'll love this when you get to come see it. We do it so much like the real legislative session that we have visitors to the capital that'll come to the they'll be watching the watching it happen and they'll say, "Man, the legislators in this state are young."

Because they think it's the real deal because it's just like the real thing. We wanted to feel that way and it and it works. So anyway, we do that around the country and then we do a oneweek one at our campus in the summer and and then we have our one-year program, but the but the legislative simulation really takes three three to seven days depending on how intense we want to go. I see. That's pretty That's And actual reps will come do that with us, too. They'll they'll get elected in their Republican primary, for instance, and they'll have six months before they're going no opponent in November or they live in an 80% district. So, they'll come to our program and practice. That way, when they go in in January, it's not the old freshman thing where you're just trying to figure out where the bathroom is. They've actually got the process down.

I love I love the practical nature of that approach. And uh yeah, I as you know, I visited your campus maybe two years ago just to get a look around. It wasn't quite as developed as it is today. We might have had a road. I don't even know what we had back then. Maybe the building was in place, but not much. Yeah. And And are there next steps? Is there something else happen? Yeah. Next is Independence Hall. We're going to we're going to do a replica of Independence Hall, so you can come study. We're we're actually a city now. Constitution City. We're not incorporated yet, but we're already acting as a city.

And um so you're going to get to study the Constitution in Independence Hall in Constitution City. It seems to me, I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this. I'm sure I'll hear from my my listeners, but none of what you've said here is partisan. That's right. I mean, it's it's basically just American values, Republican or Democrat. It's actually even better than that. It's just Western civilization. It's just it's biblical values. Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons I came down to Champion and now further south here to to uh Dallas Fort Worth area is because I really believe that u you know, Western civilization is battling here.

Amen. It may well be a last stand for the West. Um, but it's guys like yourself, myself, others that we know in this space and God's beginning to bless these endeavors that we Charlie saw this. I mean, he knew this is this is a fight for Western civilization at this point. Yeah. And I, you know, I I get some push back from people in the academy in the north and other places. Um, but I don't think what they what they seem to be missing is how it works its way out into culture, in society, into art, into the various Yeah. spheres in which we move.

And it's really only in this space, you know, basically from, you know, Texas on over to Georgia, you might say, or South Carolina or something that it's still found in all those spaces. And I one thing I've noticed is I can go and I can talk to people about the gospel and they know it. And I can talk to people about Western values and I can talk and they it's still in the culture as it were. And so I think it's a beautiful thing. Well, and and I tell you, I get to go to a lot of places. Um, and even, you know, I go to conservative areas of California and and and there's still a lot of I call them patriots, but they're basically biblical citizens. You know, they uh still believe those things.

But the opposite is true, too. And what I mean by that is the Marxism is seeped into even the most rural counties in Texas. Yes, there is a philosophy of government now that is it is as socialistic as you can get. They literally are thinking like global citizens or even even they might say just we just want good communities but they they genuinely believe that now government needs to tell you how to do everything for the good of everybody else sort of replacing the parents replacing the uh you know the church and um thinking that government can solve all our problems and these are people that think they're republic they think they're conservative Republicans.

Yes. And and and their their policies though reflect exactly what you just described. Yeah. No, we just had uh Pastor Irwin Looter in here not that long ago and he's writing a book on Marxism. And being a philosopher, I've been aware of the fact that Marxism is basically gutting Christianity of its eternal principles, but trying to model the community and and so forth. Use the language even use the language and anything it takes, revolution, anything it takes at all to make that happen. run rough shot over people. Yeah. Disrespect people if necessary in order to get at some physical reality.

Yeah. That mirrors Christian community but doesn't have the eternal principles. We just know that that doesn't work. It hasn't worked anywhere in the world. Man, you're singing my song. I mean, that is that is the warning right now, too. and and I you mentioned COVID and and I'm my prayer is that that shook enough people out of their slumber and and kind of just their days um that they started questioning and and now they're kind of on a journey of studying those things. I know we saw our our our not our youth program our youth program grew in that but our our constitution classes went through the roof because everybody was going what can government do?

You know what can they make me stay home when I'm healthy? Can they shut my church down? I mean all the all of those things. I think we needed it. Honestly, I think we needed that jolt that that made people start not just falling for all these fluffy sounding things. Well, that's an interesting take on co because I think you're right. Uh at the same time, it feels like a a few mental viruses were introduced into culture as well. And so now you have part of the polarization problem we have is that one group has has awakened to American values.

the other group cemented further into and the other another other other one says you know if if I feel like a woman I am one and let's do what's necessary to make that so that's just u that's just a fascinating development it is and u I I am intrigued um you know how you see the polarization issue and h how what's the way out of that or I boy that's a great question I know Charlie was trying to just develop places for us to talk to each other yeah I think it's to I I think it's twofold. I mean, one is definitely, and we're both on this path, is is encouraging civil discourse. Again, I've got a book out now called Rebuilding Liberty, and one of the I I call it a 12step recovery program for the country.

And uh and one of those is is is just encouraging civil discourse, whether it's with your your grandkid or niece or whoever that went off to college and got, you know, leftwing philosophy, being willing to have a a good conversation and ask good questions and and having that civil discourse one-on-one, encouraging that in the in the public sphere. And we teach our kids, we say number one, every conversation you go into it saying, if I'm wrong, I want to know. I'm I'm not going to go into this saying there's no way I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, I want to be sharpened. I want to be corrected.

It may be a piece of my argument. And that creates a humility going in, right? And then the other thing is be genuinely curious about the other person's position and their journey, how they get to that conclusion. Like Ali Beth Stucky, I think, is probably the best at actually implementing that. now, you know, next to Charlie, she's she's probably the best one out there right now to be able to do that publicly and do those things. So, I think the civil discourse thing, but I also think, and I don't want to I'm a very optimistic person, but I will say we sit around the fire and war game this stuff out all the time.

And and I think the only way ultimately to deal with the level of polarization that we've got, we've got to get back to actual federalism where the feds are only doing the things the Constitution says to do and the states become very, very different. I mean, they're already different, but to the point that, you know, blue states become even more blue probably and red states become even more red and people can vote with their feet because the numbers are just staggering and how many people in this country now actually believe in socialism, actually believe in the things that, you know, where we don't have the same common values.

We used to be that we could agree on the 10 on the on the 10 um, you know, first 10 amendments to to to the constitution. The bill of rights was basically Yes. You know, free speech was something we all agreed on. Well, the left, they don't.

they the we would say we've said it all our life I don't agree with you but I'd fight and die for your right to say right that's was common in not them they're like I don't agree with you and therefore you have to stop speaking and we have to shut you down that's a that's a real challenge man that's a there's some problems there that I I don't know if we can if we're not going to get to common ground either true revival causes an absolute awakening and churches actually disciple so that they're not just getting people walking the aisle they're actually discipling and therefore we see a difference in community and it becomes big enough that we win back all 50 states to start being more like what the founders envision or we stay together as a country. I'm not for splitting as a country, but we do allow for more diversity of thought and and states kind of go in different directions on on some big things.

I see. Well, that's uh that's fascinating. I'm I know there's been some practical things that you've been involved with. I've listened to a few of your recent podcasts. Uh it's called it's Wall Builders. Yes. Is that right? Um I want to ask you a little bit about the change in communication styles, podcasts, and other things. I I want to I want to see what your what your thoughts are about the you know, the uh likelihood that that's going to help us. You know, that it's going to be part of the solution. But, uh you know, the the the states becoming more red and more blue.

I know that uh this new legislation with redistricting and so forth. And so you have red and blue battles, Texas and California. Is that inevitable at this point that that's the way it's going to go? And then uh is that good? Is that the way we ought to sort of promote it and resolve some of our issues? I'll start with that last one because the the difference now is that Democrats have always done this. And I don't I don't say that in a partisan way.

I just mean the reason that you only have a only California and maybe one other blue state trying to redistrict midstream is that all the other states are already so redistricted and or so gerrymandered which goes back to Elbert Jerry signer in the declaration. So this has been around as long as you have elections you're going to have gerrymandering, right? It's just there's no way to remove the politics from it. You can't appoint a commission that's going to do it because they're going to be there's just no way to get rid of it. Uh anyway, they have pushed the envelope to to that point for 30 years and Republicans haven't been as will. They've done some of it, but but I think now they're, you know, it it's it's it's back against the wall.

It used to be the Republicans in that sort of middle group of sort, you know, conservative Democrats who would say, "Look, it's not good, but we'll turn a blind eye to the fact that they're gerrymandering so much because somebody has to hold a standard." Right. Right. Right. But now I think we've come to the realization that if you don't do something, you will the balance of power. Yeah. Is is is and it's and and I I again go back to the nature of man. I'm like, okay, whoever's in power, whichever party's in power is going to do what it is advantageous to them. And so they're going to draw those lines to get the most Republicans or the most Democrats elected.

It's funny you say conservative Democrats because when I went in the House in the Texas House, we had conservative Democrats. It was they were actually in charge. They were the I was in a Democrat house with a Democrat speaker who was a rural, you know, West Texas old school Democrat. And so, man, we agreed on guns. We agreed on, you know, so many things. Um, it's hard to find any like that now. That polarization you're talking about is has has truly made it a different ballgame.

But, um, anyway, I started with that last one. I'm trying to remember what you what your other question was, uh, as a part of that. It was uh well having to do with the the reality of moving in the direction of you know uh embracing states being red and blue and the gerrymandering that would naturally go along with that. Um but which is painful to my friends in you know say eastern Washington or yes you know in the agriculture valley of California. I mean they're they're just as conservative and bible believing as we are. That's right. And they don't want to lose their state. Um and and I speak in California probably more than most of the other states combined.

I mean honestly I do more constitution classes out there and there's a lot of great great churches and great people in co it was pastors from California that led the way in pushing back and fighting you know Rob McCoy and Jack Hibbs and Shayon and uh Mike Mccclure. So anyway I say all that to say I don't want I don't I don't want to end up there. I want us to have a revival in all 50 states and see even Cal, you know, California.

Think about California gave us Reagan Nixon. I mean it was it was a very different place 50 years ago. Well, you know, we were talking about Charlie, but Huts and myself and Charlie, a buddy of mine named Nathan Jacobs, the all relatively conservative came out of this Chicago area. It seems like it's in the fire of some of these, say, blue areas that some conservatives come out of and they're ready to uh they're ready to they're the best fighters because they had to, you know, like it's a it's literally a crucible. That's right. That's right. Although, I have to say, moving from Chicago down to Hot Springs myself, I I felt a little more comfortable.

Well, you know, Rob Rob McCoy got on me one time. We were we were doing an event in in uh in Washington State and and I I think we were up there for Heidi St. John. We were doing a campaign event and somebody asked this was I mean, this was probably a year into co so it was when it was bad, right? And they said something about, you know, how do I decide when to leave or not, right? and and and they're in the Seattle area and and uh and I said something to the effect of, you know, I can't hear God for you. You know, some people are going to be better off taking their families and going somewhere else.

Yes. And some people need to stay and fight. And Rob lit into me, man. He's like, Rick, you coward. Don't you encourage people to leave. They need to stay and fight. He got on to me big time. And it made me rethink it and and not be as, you know, after that I was like, "Okay, look, I get it. If you're five generations here, you got family here, your roots are here, your church is here, you know, stay and fight. And who knows what God does, right? I mean, he may turn that seems to be at least one of the areas that we we think similarly on. But if you're more into civics, I would think that you would be more prone to say stay and fight and so forth.

Philosophers like myself or we see the movement from Europe to Canada to northern United States, we feel like, dang, it's a lost cause. We need to move south in order to find Kendrick people. Well, and and for me it's a mix of both because, you know, being so steeped in the founders, they didn't know if a republic would even work with more than 50 million people, right? They questioned that. They if it gets too big, yes, it's going to be hard to hold them accountable. And you think about your congressmen or your senators, certainly your Supreme Court, untouchable, you know, and so I think they I think they were right to question it.

And and and that's one reason I I like the idea I like the idea of even having a movement where states start splitting up and and have smaller smaller state governments and smaller states so that you have a chance to, you know, live among people that you agree with and and be able to influence that government a little bit better. Everybody but Texas now. We're not splitting up Texas. Well, we are, as you know, we're in a revolution in education. Yeah. Things are changing. Schools are dropping like flies. um schools like ours with the more foundational, let's say conservative, maybe classical, great books, yeah, civics are beginning to flourish because there's a felt need.

We kind of because of the influx of immigration, because of our own ignorance really of forgetting, you know, what the you know, three branches of government are basic stuff that we once knew and everybody kind of knew. We we we don't as well as we used to. And so we have this big change in in the academy going on. Nobody's quite sure where it will land. We had the revolution with online education, but now we're having this revolution with do we even need a degree? Maybe we need certificates. Maybe we need smaller programs. Foundational programs.

But we also have modes of communication. Our young people are doing podcasts. Yeah. They're they're they're creating their own media. Do you see that as a good thing? I know you're involved in the podcast world with some of the other adventures. How how do you see I think it's a mixed bag. Honestly, I think first year education thing I I think I do see that as a good thing. You know, breaking up this this horrific system that became the university system uh and and students having more options and and being able to go directly to the meat and and and get the good stuff. And and I think it is very much out of our ignorance.

I mean I in fact part part of how I got my own children to do more reading and and go deeper than I did. As I said, you know, I'm embarrassed by the holes in my education and the things that I don't know that I want to know. Don't end up, you know, don't be there. Be be brought, you know, read broader and and go deeper on these things. So, I do think I do think that has led to where we are with this and I think it's going to get even better. I think the podcast question is really interesting because partly because of the recent stuff, right, where you have this these crazy uh dangerous, you know, things being thrown out there where they they're smart enough to avoid the liel and slander and not go quite that far. Yes.

But they plant poison in so many people's minds. But then on the other end of it, I'm a total free speech person where I'm like, let everybody say whatever they want and then counter it. So I'm conflicted on it. It's like I said I I would never be for government stopping that speech from happening, but I'm very much I have very much come to the point of we have to be wise enough. In fact, Nuke Gingrich had an article on this just the other day saying we need to bring back the Greek authorization.

We have we have to be willing to say that is so poisonous that I I shun that and I do not encourage people to go listen and I don't encourage even an invitation to debate that particular person because of that poison. So, I I I say that out of a lot of the stuff that's happened recently. And I don't even like I've I've always liked debating people that believe the exact opposite of me. I love having that conversation. But I do think there's a danger right now where and it's our own fault. I mean, let's let's face it, we opened the void, especially with young men, right?

We didn't show godly manhood. We we we the church got wimpy and and that opened the door for the Andrew Tates of the world, the Nick Quinces of the world. Yes. that that was a natural thing to happen because of our own failure as the church, right? But I think to to now win that back, we got to have some standards at some point of what we encourage. You know, it reminds me I was doing a book called The Persistence of the Sacred in Modern Thought. And there were some interpreters, revisionist historians who were so off the rails that we just said, "Look, we can't it's not even worth our time to deal with those folks." So there was similar sort of thing happening at the academy is there there gets to be some people who are so out of the the mainstream discussion if you will.

Maybe they're they're they're uh you know um you know trying to put some kind of strange thesis forward or they seem to just be malicious in their intent and uh or they know the more out there they can be now people I'll somehow have my date. You know that's how I feel about some of these people. was like they're the they're the that kid in the back of the room who just wants attention, you know, horseshack. I mean, you know, Yeah. Well, they're monetizing it. And yeah, that's just not healthy for anybody. And so, I I think I agree with you trying to find a way like N. In Gingrich apparently is doing to say, look, there's places we just won't go.

Right. Right. And so, and I think it's a false argument when they say you're against free speech if you're for that. Because I'm not I'm not at all suggesting that government should stop them from speaking. Yes. Or even that platforms deplatform. What I'm saying is don't don't elevate their voice. Don't don't do anything that's going to help them, you know, get a a bigger audience. And don't be afraid to say. I think that's a terrible person to be listening to. Your diet of information is I mean, look at all the people that are out there. You got to pick and choose what your news sources are going to be. I tell I've told my kids that from the beginning, like you got to be careful who you listen to.

That's just part of, you know, that's just wisdom. Yeah. No, that's such a good word. I'm uh yeah, I'm I'm with you on that. Now, just in in sort of closing thoughts here, I know you've got a big schedule here this evening and I I don't want to I wish I didn't have to go to that dinner, man. We could we could do it Joe Rogan style. Go three hours, man. We Yeah, there's so much more ground that we could cover, but it's been so good getting to meet you. We'll do it again. Yeah. I want to get you on my show, too, on the tavern.

Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to I'd love to do that. And um you know, I guess in closing then with with your kids, I'm thinking about my kids right now. I've invested a lot in other people's kids. Yeah. But I'm thinking about mine right now. The How old are yours? Uh well, they range from 19 to 27. All right. And so that's very close. Yeah. Yeah. My youngest is 21, my oldest is 30. Yeah. Is that right? Okay. Yeah. And so, you know, trying to demarcate where the battle lines are, where where would you I mean, young people come through your door, um, trying to tool them up. Do you have any parting advice for them or how, you know, what what you would want to say to, uh, young people?

Man, the first thing is cliche for sure. U, but it's just truth. And, and Kirk Cameron and I came to this conclusion. We were doing, we just finished biblical citizenship. We were trying to war game out. How do we simplify things to to be able to go in and say, "Here's how to make a difference." And we spent all day and we went through all this stuff and at the end of the day we said, you know what it really boils down to is number one, saturate your mind in God's word. Yes. That if you're doing that step first, everything else will flow from that.

But if you skip that step, everything else is going to be for not, you know? And so that I know it's cliche in our circles, but it is so true, man. If you're if you don't have that piece part of like I'm working on a project right now to get the Bible back in public schools more, and it's so easy to make the argument for I don't care if you believe like me at all. This is, you know, literature, history, so many things. You can't understand Western civilization if you don't know the Bible, which is the stuff you teach, right? So, you know this. I'm not telling you anything, but I just say that's number one.

And I would and and I've always said the same thing to my kids. Saturate yourself in in God's word, your your whole mind. And then and then find community where you can sharpen each other, you know, whether that's nights around the fire with a handful of people or it's being in a program like this where you got a couple of dozen you can do that with.

Yes. Uh and then just tend the garden. find your place where you're supposed to be pulling out the weeds or planting or you know tend the garden. That was what Kirk and I came up with and I that day and I it just sticks with me. I think it simplifies it. You and I have so many overlaps. It's amazing. I he came to speak at one of our turning point events at Trinity a number of years ago. We went out for dinner and he was such a such a such a great conversationalist and he's such a good teacher. He is. He's so good at just getting he took the opportunity.

I I'll have to call him out on this just to pick my brain on a number of philosophical theological issues he wanted answers to. So he has a lively mind. That's one thing I really appreciate about him, but it's clearly his love of country and so forth. But u having people like him to to for us to be able to talk with and see what's going on on the front lines. I know he did a lot of work in libraries. Yeah. and uh and and just trying to raise awareness that uh our founding principles and and and and and things that we hold dear are under threat behind closed doors and with our kids and everything else. And so we just need to be more vigilant in in in in being a part of the process.

And so as an accommodition who's now stepped into out of the ivory towers and into these spheres, I just uh want to thank you for all you've done. Right back at you, man. Thank you. I'm I'm just I'm a newbie around these parts, but I'm uh certainly very interested and I see the immense value and I just want to thank you for that. Man, I'm looking forward to doing more together. I I don't think this is by accident and you know, that first email you sent me was a couple years ago and for us to be actually, you know, physically meeting for the first time today, I I think there's more for us to do together.

All right, brother. God bless you, man. Thank you so much. God bless you, too. That's it for the Firestorm Files for today. Thank you so much for watching. Thanks for stopping by to spend some time with me here on the Firestone Files. I hope today's reflections offered you some new insights and perspective on life. If you enjoyed the episode or found it valuable, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to like, subscribe, and share it with someone you care about. I'd also love to hear your thoughts.

What resonated with you? What challenged you? Or what would you like to hear more about in future episodes? Drop a comment below or send in your suggestions to the email in the description. Your input helps shape where we go next. This has been Dr. Chris Firestone. Until next time, keep asking the big questions. And remember, the kingdom journey is always best with your friends. Further up and further in. Bye for now.

around. It's around.