An Interview with Eric Capaci

I tell you, I went away saying, "If this guy is what he appears to be, he's amazing." Well, Hey everyone, welcome to the Firestone Files. I am Dr. Chris Firestone and today I have for you an interview with President and Pastor Eric Capacy of Hot Springs, Arkansas. He has become a great friend, co-sojourer uh in in the kingdom work down here in Hot Springs. And I'm so excited to be able to bring this interview to you here on the Firestone Files. Hope you enjoy the show and do reach out if you have any questions or comments or if you want to hear any other interviews or have me dig a little deeper next time.

Love to hear from you. But for now, enjoy. Eric Capacy, president and pastor and friend here in Hot Springs, Arkansas. Hope you enjoyed the show. Hey everybody, welcome back to the Firestone Files. I am so excited today to have a a a man here who's been really important to my life and to my transition and really to the very possibility of the Firestone Files. Um and that's uh pastor and president Eric Capacy. Um so glad to have you here. Thank you for coming and uh enter I mean I don't exactly know how to put it to just gracing the files here. Um it's my honor.

I've been looking forward to it. Yeah. Well, um, you know, we've known each other, I think, now for closing in on two years. Um, and, uh, you came along in a time in my life where I was searching for new endeavors. And uh one of the reasons I came and people on the Firestone Files who are listening along will know that I was looking at Hot Springs because my dad was here, my mom passed away years ago. And uh just trying to see if God had any opportunity here for us. And part of that journey for me was seeing this small Christian liberal arts college, you know, Champion Christian College.

What is this here? Uh I've got to check this guy out. And so I sent some email, I think at least one email to you, maybe two. And now that I look back at it from years later, I see this guy's busy. I mean, he probably gets a so many of these kinds of emails. And so nothing happened that year. I was still at Trinity working there as a professor of philosophy. But as it got more serious on my end, I reached out again.

I said, I really have to see if I can meet this fellow who I see on the internet. Um, uh, President Capaci sent another email and you graced me with a coffee in a coffee shop that has a interesting name. It's very similar to your name, the uh, Kapachi Coffee Shop. That's right. And that's where we first met. And um, what do you remember about that meeting? You this guy you I mean you you met coming in and uh, you know what? Maybe you could tell us that story a little bit.

Well, you made a really great first impression, and I think some of that had to do with the fact that Emma was with you, and uh I I've always uh I've always had a a special place for Emma. She's she's the first Firestone, I think, that I actually knew. And so, it was fun having coffee that morning. But yes, I was uh I was anticipating. I was excited about, okay, what what's going to come out of this, you know? Uh I I was looking forward to it. I remember that.

And then when I left, I do know and I I tend to be uh you know, I get excited about watching, you know, I can watch two ants racing down a sidewalk and cheer for one and move for the other. So I tend to be excited initially uh about a lot of things. But I was excited, Chris, about that conversation and felt like, you know what, it may may not go anywhere.

This may be just a a a casual friendship that has distance between it, but I can tell you that that was the beginning of why we're sitting here right now two years later. And thankfully, and I'm grateful it it had much more than just a casual acquaintance. Well, I I got in that little snippet with you, I was like an hour, I think, maybe if I was guessing, you know, a picture of your life and uh I said, "Man, this guy really brings it. He's got energy. He's got vision." and he's got story and family and it's some of the stuff I'm hoping to capture here in this conversation uh today.

But the thing I'll I'll I have to tell this story because you got excited about some of the stuff we were talking about. We were visionizing a little bit together about possibilities and uh coffee was in your hand and you got excited. You knocked the coffee airborne. It kind of spilled all over yourself. You didn't even flinch though. He said, "SOMEBODY GRAB ME SOME NAPKINS." So they hustled some napkins over to you. You cleaned up and we finished our conversation. You know, my dad h has a great influence on my life. He still lives in New Orleans. He's 85 years old. And my dad has said to me all my life since day one when those moments happen, you roll with the punches. And so I knew I was standing before a professor that I met for the first time. And probably Chris behind in my mind that I didn't display was, man, I'm embarrassed right now. But you know what? There's no turning back.

I I tell you, I went away saying, if this guy is what he appears to be, he's amazing. Well, anybody can just keep going after a coffee. We kept we we as you know, we we talked and we kept going and u now I work for Champion Christian College. I think it was maybe a year after that or so. um that did come together by God's grace. But I'm not here to tell a story of me and and Champion. People already probably know a little bit about that. I've kind of you you mentioned New Orleans. Mhm. I know California is in your history. I know the Chicago area in some way is in your history and then you land in Hot Springs.

That seems like a pretty ciruitous route. Could you just give us, you know, a thumbnail sketch of how that happens to somebody? Yeah. So, you know, my my journey began in New Orleans, Louisiana as a Roman Catholic alter boy born to two wonderful parents that whose marriage did not did not survive uh in their early years and wonderful parents though, great. They could have written a book on, you know, I mean, divorce, I guess, is never good, but they handled it in a way that their two boys are successful Baptist preachers and and uh my brother actually established the church I pastor and the college we have now. He was the the my right-hand man in those both those journeys.

So, after New Orleans, my mom moved. So, here's where Hot Springs comes into the picture. She moved to Hot Springs. She was an RN in New Orleans working for Hotel D Hospital and she was an incredible uh IV therapist. She could hit a needle, Chris. She could hit a vein rather with a needle first time every time. I mean, it was so fascinating. It was like she was a magician with a needle. And I know how phenomenal that is because if you've ever had a vein missed before. Yeah. My wife has gone through a couple times and they can never find hers apparently.

But maybe the uh there are nurses powerful object meets the immovable object and something has to give there something has and my mom was one of those people. So she was offered a job at my at the age of I was I was 13 living in New Orleans. She was offered a job at uh multiple cities across the United States. Chicago, LA, Miami and Hot Springs, oddly enough wanted to start what was going to be called an IV therapy unit. Yes, these were new. This was a nuance that never had entered the medical field before, but they were going to actually have nurses that all they did was IVs.

Yes. All over the hospital. So, she started the first one in Hot Springs. She moved to Hot Springs because she did not want us to be far away from from our daddy. So, that that means you were here in Hot Springs early on. Exactly. Before you went to California, Chicago area, that sort of like a fiveyear stint that I was That's when I met the Lord. We can come back to that. But I met the Lord there. then went to seminary in Chicago. So that was my Chicago life for five years. Oh yes. Stayed long enough to get a a degree and a master's degree.

Yes. Then took my first met my bride there, Caroline, my beautiful bride. And we stayed there a year. Moved to California where I was a youth pastor, a large inner city church in LA uh for two years and then cross country. Yes. Back to Hot Springs. Never thought I'd be here. I honestly thought I'd be in New Orleans being uh you know planting a church there. my hometown that I dearly love. Yes. But man, I'm I'm I love this city and I'm committed to it. Now, was there a connection between your five years when you met the Lord here in Hot Springs and your desire to come back here uh at after the California thing?

Not really. That's what's interesting is that what makes me coming back to Hot Springs so really unique, special, and really somewhat supernatural is it wasn't on my radar screen until I received a phone call from a man in this city who said to me in California randomly, he said, "Look, Eric, I I I know you're probably you have no desire to come back to Hot Springs. I know you're a big city guy." And I was I was born in New Orleans, school in Chicago, job in LA. I mean, I I was not a small town guy. Still am not really as far as my my when I vacation, I want to vacation in a big city downtown, you know.

I'm just that kind of person, you know, teach his own. But, uh, he he invited me. He said, "Look, we we've got about 15 people." Yes. We we're looking for someone that would start a church here, and we're asking if you'd be interested. Wow. And that's pretty cool. It seems to I mean maybe I'm overspiritualizing but it seems to be at least poetic that you had this experience with your mom here for 5 years and then you got a call for somebody calling you from this place that you'd long forgotten about.

Exactly. No, that's well put and really I've never been asked that question just like that. So, I really appreciate the direct question because it really makes me appreciate just the sovereign hand of God in in our lives as he moves pieces that we can't see. Yes. And uh he moved on that man's heart. And to this day, I I can thank him. He's still in Hot Springs, still part of our church, and I can thank him for that.

Okay. And what one of the touch points between the Capacities and the Firestones is that my dad and mom came here almost the exact same year, which is, you know, I don't think you guys Well, you probably crossed each other's path at Kroger or something, but So 92. Is that right? Yeah, they Yeah, it was Wow. Yeah, that's crazy. I bet we did. I mean, I would imagine. Yeah, it was right. It was 9293 range where they they moved. they had an early retirement and decided because my grandparents had been down here. Um and uh yeah, they decided to come down right at that same time.

So, yeah. Now, um, so you you came here and you started a ministry, but I want to go back to that that that point because one of the things you showed me when we were negotiating the possibility of me coming here, you wanted to show me your story and you took me over to this parking lot, I don't know, between your house basically and Champion somewhere in there. I don't remember exactly where it is. And there's a plaque on the ground that has your name on it. What does it What does it say? It says something to the effect that you accepted the Lord on that spot.

On that spot um I don't know what 40 years ago or whatever it was, right? It would have been it would have been 1978, September the 1st. Okay. So I was my mother moved to see her and she was attending the church that was on that corner. We were attending St. John's Catholic Church and uh just continuing in in the tradition that we had that is all we knew. Yes. And the mom was attending a more evang ev evangelistic church, evangelical church on that corner. And so one particular Sunday she invited she asked her boys, her two boys, would you go with me? And we said, "Mom, if you'll let us go to mass on Saturday, we'll go to church with you on Sunday."

We were that devoted. We were the two of the most religious little boys you've ever seen. And I mean, I in some context, the word religion is okay. I mean, in others, it's not. But I I say in this conversation, we were definitely uh super religious boys. We didn't really know Jesus personally, but we knew all about uh religion and and God and and rules and following those things. So, she brought us to church on Saturday and then Sunday we went with her. We kept our promise. And goodness, it was in that service that we first really heard the clear gospel of Jesus Christ, the death, burial, and resurrection, the free gift of salvation.

and my brother and I both received Christ as our savior and were baptized. And so when I started this church and told that story, uh, one of the people in the church presented me with that plaque and said, "Take me to the spot." And I went to the spot and they had it, uh, professionally ingrained in that concrete. Yes. Uh, and that black top. Yeah. And um, there it is. And so it's been a great celebration. I often go to that spot, look at it, and weep. Yeah. remember that day that I knelt there and we figured it out because the building burnt down.

Yes. But I was able to pretty much get somebody that had been in that building for years to take me to the spot. Well, I do I do think that that was one of the things among up several things that began to convince me that you you weren't any ordinary preacher. U that you were rooted here. You have a story to tell. It began on this spot. you took me to that spot and then you showed me the rest of the ministry and all the various facets of it and I go, "Wow, that's an impressive layout." And I want to get to some of that as we go along here.

But maybe we can stay with that thread for a moment because I'm intrigued by it. The ministry thread now you're back. You take this calling 15 people. Um I mean, where'd you where'd you live? I mean, I've heard stories about I don't know if they're true stories. Oh, yeah. You're living I mean it's almost stereotypical of Arkansas in some ways. You're living in a trailer home.

Is that right? Yeah. Well, the fir actually the first place we lived before the trailer home was we came across country and one of the 15 people had a house that they weren't renting at the time. It was a businessman who had owned he had several properties and he said, "Eric, look, I've got a place for you and your brother and your wives and your children, but it's out in the middle of the woods." And it's called Jaguar Trail. I could take you to the road, take you to the exact house. Is there a plaque there, too, or no? No plaque. But there is a Jaguar Trail Street.

You can't hardly see it, but it's on the way to Little Rock, but it's it's crazy. So, we he he took me to the spot and I remember looking at my wife saying, "Honey, this is crazy." I mean, there's going to be ticks and fleas and roaches and rats and who knows what else out here, you know? And sure enough, we we could tell you some stories. So, we my brother lived in one h room with his wife. I lived in one room with my wife and we had the both the babies in the other room. It was $350 a month. We split the rent and we lived there for probably six months until I bought a uh a used mobile home from from him. He actually had a big mobile home park that he was selling mobile and he sold me one for cost, you know, it was I think it was used or something. And so then we put that in a mobile home park.

Yes. You know, interesting story about that mobile home park. I had somebody who visited our church uh two weeks ago and on the way out, this is just real time, shook my hand and said, "Do you remember Mr. RC Combmes?" Yes. And I said, "I sure do. He he was my landlord. He owned the RC Combmes mobile home park." And she looked at me, she says, "I'm his daughter." Oh my goodness. He always told me about you. He said, "You know, I I I got a Baptist preacher in my mobile home park." He said, "Uh, I feel better about my park with a preacher there.

But she the daughter she said he's he's gone now. He had gone to heaven. But uh I thought that was neat. You know that that is neat. I kind of reminds me of being in a faculty meeting last year and one of the adjunct faculty's name slipping my mind at the moment. She said do you know a Harold Firestone? Harry Firestone. I go yeah that's my dad. Yeah. We rented a house from him for a number of years. Cuz he had a few houses that he was renting back in the day and sold them now. But that's uh that's amazing when you're when you're rooted in a place and you're putting down roots and you get to know people how that makes a difference in people's lives.

It really does. It really does. It it you never know. You just cast your bed upon the water and it returns. So you're in the trailer home. How long were you in this trailer home? Uh oh my good. Probably 10 years. 10 years. Okay. I remember we sold it to a man that's still in our church as well for I think I bought it for 18,000. Sold it for 10. That's pretty good return on a church. Not bad. Not bad, but there is inflation. Oh my goodness. And then uh is that when you when did you move into the house you're currently in? In 1990. What?

We had a family in our church that uh so it had been what? Moved here. 90 90 No, 2000. I'm sorry. We moved here. '92 is when we started the church. 2000. My bad. 2000 is when so about eight years in the mobile home. Moved in that house and maybe been 2001. But we we had a family in the church cuz they they she she built speck homes. Yes. And she said, "Preacher, where do you want to live?" I said, "I'd like to live close to the church. My life is wrapped up in this whole thing." Yes. And she said, "Well, find a lot." So, I found a lot on Third Street for $10,000.

Never forget it. Called the guy said, "I'll take 10,000 for the lot." Gave him 10,000 for the lot. And she built her and her husband built me a speck home. Oh my goodness. It was amazing. Yeah. We couldn't believe it. And we I mean, we we we could not have done it without that couple still in our church, Dave and Sonia Chidum. Oh my goodness. You know, well, yeah, I know how you I mean, one of the things that if you do come into this sphere of the capaci, you're going to get into that home probably on a Sunday afternoon for lunch, but that wide open space that that ability to uh be hospitable and host and all of that.

I mean, those were, you know, I think meeting you up front and then going to your home, those were two pretty good bookends and saying, "Man, this guy is legit." Well, that's such a solid group over there. I feel the same way about being in your home, Chris. You could just tell that it's not about, you know, the location of the home. It's not about the size of the home. It's not about, you know, the the decor. It's about the the love, the hospitality, the the welcoming. And you have that and we have that, too. We we just really cherish that. And that's why we're so happy to be on Third Street. We I laugh about it.

I talk about it living in the hood and Yes. and just being close to the church and now we own six, seven houses on that street. All my kids live on that street with not all but most of them. Yes. And family and my mother-in-law. And it's just become a little capaci. I know it well. I know it well. I've been over there a few times as you know and uh you know I bike past there sometimes when I'm biking from my house to campus and so forth. That's just a great a great thing that you've done there. It does bring up my next question for you.

I mean I mean I'm thinking about the Capaci family at this point now. I heard you say that you had one child in that trailer home. Is that Mo who Okay. Mo's the oldest. And then um you have five kids. Uh the Fire Stones have five kids. We have two boys and three girls. You have three boys and two girls, right? Um, and people who are watching the the the the the show here will know that the Fire Stones are um probably more uh nomadic in their approach to life. I mean, they're kind of going all over the place. I've got one in California. I've got one in Chicago.

I've got one in Indiana, one in Tennessee, and uh two in Tennessee, I guess, right now. Go one's going to school there. And so, um but they love to they love to come back. They love to participate in things together, you know, trying to foster that kind of family dynamic where, yeah, they're individual starters, but they're also in love with each other, as it were. Just just wanting to to to to build something together whenever they can. That isn't a lot. I mean, every couple of months or the kids will come over or we'll meet somewhere and so forth. That's a slightly different thing than what the Capacies have done.

um similar family dynamics, but a lot of them have set up shop and have their own businesses or relationship to either Gospel Light or to Champion, but they're in the neighborhood and they're putting roots down here. How do you process I mean, how did that come about? And you know, why does that work so well? Yes. You know, my wife and I always like to preface our answer to a question like that by saying that we by no means had any plans or persuasion to make that happen.

It was it was it was a God thing. And each individual child, Matias, Josiah, Ezekiel, Khloe, Glorianne, affectionately known as Mo, Joe, Zo, Clo. Yes. uh their nickname uh another story. But uh they all have you well I have a special needs daughter. We can talk about that at some point. But uh obviously she'll live with us her whole life. But the others made the decision on their own to to plant roots here and and even though I think each one of them had I wonder if and maybe this maybe that. So the dynamic has been fascinating. I mean we have absolutely loved it. We have to pinch ourselves sometimes.

Yes. But what we've what we've learned is that you know if you are giving your children the opportunity to make their own decision and they choose to stay with you Yes. then it's it's it's special. I mean it it becomes something that uh that that grows because there's so many similarities in our personalities our children there's that they become a part of the fabric of everything you do whether it's church school college business all of it and so they all wear multiple hats. Yes. But they all are working for either Champion or Gospelite and usually one of our other uh businesses andor you know VOCs.

Yes. I want to get into some of that as we go along, but I sticking with this. You told me a story when I mean on the surface to an outsider who who doesn't know the Capacities who's looking in, you have this dynamic going on and the family, you got a a coffee shop named after you various other things. You're like, can this be healthy? You know, like this what's going on? And so as I looked closer at this and I heard stories from you.

One of I don't know if you're willing to tell this story again, but you told me about Mo uh playing basketball and he ran into some issues and you had to play, you know, as it were hard ball with him in order to write the ship. And that was a really good thing for him. You know, it wasn't like you're just you're not handing out a silver platter to these guys. They have to make their way uh and and not be just given a gift. I mean, is that is that fair? Is that is that Yes. No, you're exactly right.

I don't know if you can flesh that out a little bit, but No, I think I think the danger is in in in having all of our children here and ingrained into the ministry and and positions of leadership. None none yet in an elder position or, you know, a pastor position that is an elder, but all in leadership positions. um that it doesn't appear that there's any favoritism or you know they get to skip certain things in line to to to if you will earn you know their position. But yes, Mo, uh I I'll be honest and frank and transparent with the Firestone Files here that uh my son got expelled from champion and uh and it that had to go through you.

I assume it did. It did. In fact, and you know, I look back and and and I love this part of the story because the the uh EVP at the time when he brought the news to me, he said, "Look, you know, we what Mo, you know, what Mo's uh issue, his problem is, you know, it's infraction for the it could warrant expulsion. But President, if you like, I I can I can work this out a different way." And it was kind and I think I knew at the time I believe he meant it wasn't Jeremy, it was someone else.

Yes. But uh I believe he meant well by that. I really think he was just thinking, you know, here's the worst case scenario and what other options we might have here, right? And I appreciated this thing, but I said, "No, I said I know what Mo needs. Mo needs to know that uh he's he's not going to get special treatment on this." And and so he called Mo in and Mo was expelled. And you know, Mo tells the story now and can't cry without getting through it. He he weeps every time because he he says, "Dad, that was the turning point in my life when I realized that I couldn't stand on Erica Pacy's character.

I couldn't stand I couldn't hide behind Erica Pacy's reputation." Yes. I had to choose for myself. Yes. And uh and today, as you know, he's one of the most outstanding young men uh that I've ever known really. I I sometimes step back and think, "Wow, be like him." You know, I think if I remember right, they went on that team went on to win the championship that year and and he did he he was the water boy. He was the water boy. I'm not exaggerating. And he and he has skills. I mean, we know he was a good basketball player, but really good. Yeah.

But he was expelled or at least put on probation or whatever that was, you know, and he had that year and he had to go through that and um now he's a leader of his family. He's a leader in the church. He's a leader of the basketball team and and and uh owns his own business and so forth. You know, Chris, what's interesting about that too, you're right about all that is the the the bandwidth that that's given me in having conversations with other champion students. Yes. Uh to to be able to look at them when there's an issue, when there's a struggle, and let them know that, hey, I've been here with my own son.

Yeah. I've sat in my office looking at my own son having to administer correction. Yeah. And and discipline and and direction. Yes. And so I want to do that for you now because uh this is not a stranger to my own personal life. And I have seen the trajectory of of those moments when when young people are almost a little bit like, you know, I can't believe this is happening to me. Uh it changes the whole direction of the conversation. Well, I'm I'm definitely going to be leaning into you because I I don't know that I've ever really learned that.

That's such a important skill. Yeah, I know. I'll be giving you some phone calls along the way, I'm sure. But, uh, yeah, that's super super cool. Now, Mo's your first and who's the youngest, is it? So, Glorian is the youngest, my special needs daughter. Okay. Special young lady. She's she's So you have this huge go-getter up at the top who causes problems at a time, but he's turned his life around is really knocking it out of the park. And then you have a special needs daughter at the other end and other kids in the middle. I how Yeah. How does those dynamics work? So you've got three boys at front, Mojo and Zo.

Uh Ezekiel, I mean, excuse me, Josiah, my second born, is the worship pastor and the children's pastor. And he is my he is my, if you will, my liaison with all of our businesses. He works with me in our fitness center, our gym, our food truck, our locksmith, and our tanning salon. And of course, we're we've got one more adventure that we're working on now. Uh that that's still out there. But anyway, he is fascinating that that young man because he is most of his ministry is Sunday oriented, most of it. He's got more time.

Yes. And so because he's not teaching or or you know, in the college. So I see that helps. And so Joe and Joe has that's a nice addition to the family dynamics to have someone like that. It really is. It's got that time Monday through Friday, you know, and so then uh Ezekiel is coaching high school basketball, teaching in the high school, and also is the young adult uh pastor and just a great young man. I think he's gotten really close to you as well. Thank you for investing in him. I love it because God puts men in my children's lives who have different uh giftings and abilities and likings and hobbies that I just never had.

Yes. And and so sometimes I feel like, you know, there's been those moments that my kids may have been deprived of things that they would have enjoyed, but then God always comes through and I got a Firestone. This guy loves biking. We've gone mountain biking quite a few times together. It's he and his wife actually. And so yeah, that's been a lot of fun. Thank you. And so, so the way it works and I've got Khloe. Khloe is incredible. She teaches fifth grade and she's u engaged to a wonderful young man. And I I think that that the way it works is each indiv individual child has is special. They all have I've dated my children. I've grown up with uh with these date nights. They each get a night with dad once every month and now once every quarter because they're older.

And I'm learning a lot from you. I got to start taking notes here. Oh, listen. It's the greatest thing I I ever did. I mean, and they could choose the place. In fact, I've I've always had a philosophy in life that I'd rather have a lower mortgage, a lower house payment, uh maybe maybe a lower car payment, and invest hundreds of dollars into dating and food and date nights and time conversations where I'm, you know, hey, yeah, bring a dessert out. Let's talk. Because to me, those are the moments that revolutionized my family dynamic. It was those conversations when I could lean in and say, how are you doing?

Hey Chloe, what's what's going on? Where are you hurting? Hey Mo, you know what? What are you thinking right now? What does your future look like? These were hundreds and hundreds of not not no exaggeration, hundreds I I won't say thousands, but hundreds of conversations between my children. So that the dynamic really I think was formed in those moments. Yes. And now when the family looks back on that, it always comes up. The date nights. The date nights. In fact, cool story. When Mo got married, he looked at me and he said, "Dad," he said, "I've got one favor to ask." And I said, "What's that?" He said, "I know I'm married now. I got to pay my own bills.

I've got a lot of responsibility, but I got to know, can we still have our date night?" I said, "You got to ask Suzanne." I mean, she she's part of this decision. So, he said, "Honey, what do you think?" And she said, "All right, once a quarter." Wow. Anyway, yeah, that's super cool. And u and so, yeah, I mean, I really look forward we because both of our families are so sort of invested in what they're doing. And we've never had the chance to get five and five together all that's got to happen one day cuz I I just want to sit back with you and watch the interactions between these guys to see how those dynamics uh work themselves out that way.

And I've enjoyed getting to know your children, too. I mean, as they've come back, I've gotten to know, you know, some more than others. But I've loved it. I' It's been great just watching their different personalities and different uh uh you know. Well, you have added spice to their life as well because they always come back and they're always asking questions now. What is that president Eric up to? Yeah. What's he What's he doing now? What's new thing on?

It's usually your fault that I've got a new thing. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. Um well, I'm interested to two threads here and they're hard to um disentangle in some ways. I think we're doing more of the disentangling now and that is the church ministry and Champion Christian College. Yes. you know, you you're I'm going to call that bivocational. I mean, you really are a pastor of the highest order, senior pastor, dynamic ministry. You have the online presence and so forth, but you also have started a college. I guess I'm interested, maybe we'll start with the ministry. Uh, but the question's the same for both. How do how do the triumphs and and and and trials happen over the 30-year period?

I mean, did the church just always be growing? Did it have a season where it was, you know what I mean? I I guess I don't know a lot about that story and I'm sure there's a thousand stories you can tell, but maybe just give us a you know. Yeah, I think I can I think I can you know I I'll give you what what I connect it to my children back to my children because I think that's where the conversation is going mostly is family. But so I'm I'm pastor of Gospelite. We were uh a very traditional uh more of an independent church. Um and and and nothing wrong with we're still independent to a degree, but and somewhat legalistic without even realizing it.

I don't think it was I think the reason why the Lord's done so much transforming in my life is because I never drank the Kool-Aid of legalism. I I I understood, you know, there's rules and regulations and religion and denominations and opinions that or or even uh loyalties to certain institutions that sometimes without us even realizing it got our decisions, you know. Uh but I I I began to realize as my children were pushing back in their teen years to certain things that we were we were a little resistant to that are these biblical issues, right?

Are these are these just preferences and opinions? And you know, so the probably the greatest trial and transition in my life was caused by a decision I made um to really just get out of my world, out of this little bubble I was in. Yes. and just see what else is out there. Went to couple of quick little things. Went to Brooklyn Tabernacle in New York and visited Mr. Jim Simba. Yes. At the Brooklyn Tabernacle Church and the Lord used that experience to open my eyes to a whole another world of evangelicalism. That was just powerful.

Yes. uh went to Adrien Rogers Church in uh in Belleview uh at Belleview Baptist Church in Memphis, Tennessee, and saw this successful denominational church, Southern Baptist Church, but very independent uh in in still in its conviction. And the Lord began to introduce me to people as I began to distance myself from where I was, our ministry was losing ties with all of its growth connections. I mean, everything feeding our ministry was this this group of people that I was now disappointing. Yes, because I wasn't, you know, dotting eyes and crossing tees according to the Pharisees and Sadducees of the world and and uh and so our ministry. Yes. The trial of finances and loss of growth and we basically everything either cut in the college as an independent college was 300 as a Baptist college and it went down to 30.

Oh wow. And I thought for sure we're going to close the doors and the school was just barely open. The church was was dying. I think I was 30 days from foreclosure. Yes. And u I remember just feeling as if you know I was a failure and this was it. It was it was all going to end here about 2010 2012. Oh my goodness. In that range and so but then you know miracles began to happen. And again, this is I know this not not time to tell all the stories, but God began to provide unusual miraculous ways beginning with a $100,000 check that a a man in our church gave me and just, you know, said, "Hey, get caught up.

Get caught up on all these things." He did. You know, happens to me all the time. It was incredible. and then bring people into my lot. Judge M, our chairman of our college board, came into my life and he began to help me get the college accredited and and began to introduce me to friends who could help fund some of these efforts because it's it's obviously a very extensive journey to organization. And all that to say, I'm so glad I look back on that and I'm so thankful that I followed Christ and his leadership in my life versus pleasing man, which is what I didn't realize I was doing, but I was. I mean, I was more concerned about what people thought than what the Lord was actually.

And so, when you look at the church today, you know, explicitly at the church, is it what you had envisioned when you stepped away from the legalistic side of things to are you where you want to be or is there more to go here? I think there's more to go. I think anytime you swing a pendulum, it it's going to swing farther at first, right? You know, just momentum is going to swing your direction, right? Uh, and so I I think it's it's going to come a little more back to to as it very slowly though. Very I think that's that's been one of my I think if I can say it like this without seeming uh you know that I'm bragging because I'm not.

But I think being patient and waiting and respecting where people are versus the roll, you know, the rolling people over and climbing over people to get, I think that's been a success point for us is just taking our time, letting things slowly roll out. So, I think as that pendulum comes closer, there'll be a little more of the tradition and Yes. Uh and and we're just working through that, right? But uh I do think we're still in the process of being transformed.

Wow. Well, that I mean the organic way you've explained the journey is pretty fascinating. I think it's a lesson to anybody going into ministry is being teachable, learning your context, knowing the scriptures, knowing what you, you know, the non-negotiables, the negotiables, and the stuff you can let go of. You know, all of those things. Sounds like that's quite a journey you've been on. It is. And it's a journey that I think, you know, Jesus went on with his disciples as they were, you know, they're not doing it like us. Let's call fire from heaven and no wait a minute. name for us, you know, may not be like we like it.

So, yeah, I think that's been, you know, a real anchor in my life is is understanding that it it we don't all have to be twins to be brothers. Yes. You know, we can have slight differences and still be very close. Well, I mean, that's incredible. I mean, I've, you know, as you know, Beth and I have come to Hot Springs. We've joined the church. We're beginning to slowly roll up our sleeves and figure out how we can best serve and um and that's an ongoing process. Um but uh making a slight transition back over to the college. Two things I have in my mind here. How does starting an academy or college fit into your ministry vision?

And secondly, there's a story you told me. I'd love to love you to give uh about the building itself that still I still think about sometimes because it's so I thought it was cliche because I was looking at your family and what you're doing here in Hot Springs and I said, "Man, this sounds like a young Jerry Fwell to me. I mean, he's really he's really, you know, doing it in in not just preaching the gospel, but giving people jobs and buying businesses and growing the church in that sort of way." And lo and behold, there was a connection Exactly.

And so yeah I so transitioning from the you know the the church to the academy how does one how did you think about that compliment and then how did you get the building and resources to do it? Well I'd love to answer that question because I I know exactly how I want to answer that in in in a in a podcast setting where I've got a limited time. Well, first of all, you know, the church was growing and and all by itself with just the private Christian school in the church. We had experienced a lot of growth. I mean, in a short period of time in a very bad part of town, we were just busting at the seams, had already built a building.

We're buying properties everywhere. And I initially felt like, hey, we need we could teach this. We could teach this in smalltown USA, you know, in a Bible college setting. And so, initially, that's all I planned on doing was more of an institute. come here uh learn about how to do what we're doing. Um and and that's how the whole college concept started. It was I believed we we had something that could be duplicated and it was energy and excitement and it had it was taking off in such a short period of time.

And then uh I read a book by Jerry Fwell called Capturing a Town for Christ. I I had a friend give it to me. You can't it's not in print anymore. You can go online, Google it. Capturing a Town for Christ, Jerry Fwell, Senior. And you'll find an old copy. I found one. It's still sitting. I can take you right to it in my office. I know where it's at. It was the book that revolutionized my thinking about hot springs, about smalltown USA, about reaching America uh through planting churches and and just organic growth. So read that book and the church began to grow. Uh we we said, "Okay, this is the date we're going to start the college."

And lo and behold, I get a phone call from a church, a giant church across the street from our little outfit for sale. Uh it was a Southern Baptist church, the largest church in town, 10 acres running over a thousand, 100 rooms, 1,000 seat auditorium, all of this. And it's it's on the other side of the tracks, if you will. But he and I was in my little mobile home, you know, making I think $14,000 a year or something. And and uh he said, "Hey, Eric." He said, "Are you the you're the pastor of Gospel Light, right?" I said, "Yes." He goes, "We're that big church across the street. We're we're going to sell." And I said, his name was Chuck Macau. Said, "Well, Chuck," I said, "Great guy, by the way." I said, "That's great." I said, "Well, how much you want for the buildings?" He said, "Well, we're asking five and a half million." I said, "We'll take it."

I mean, you know, 32, 33 year old pastor, "We'll take you know, and our offerings were probably four or 5,000 a week, you know, and so I went to our deacons and told them and they said, "Preacher, that's that's not going to work. We're going to I" I said, "Well, okay." I said, "But I got to I can't imagine why God would allow this to come available if it wasn't for us." And so I had a friend, and that I always tell this part of the story. John Morris was his name. Great guy, still my friend, such a blessing. Lives in Virginia. He said, "Uh, Eric," he said, "I may have a a solution for your problem."

Yes. I said, "What is it?" He goes, "Jerry Fwell." I said, "How am I going to talk to Jerry Fwell?" I know him. I've got his the number to his office. I said, "You do?" He said, "Yes." He goes, "Uh, let me call his secretary and see if I can get you a phone appointment with him." So, he called me back the next day and said 10:00 Saturday morning. Here's the number. Call this number and he will answer the phone. So, I Oh, it was made. I got up early that morning. I had my coffee, got by. I mean, I made sure I was in in the best frame of mind I could possibly be. Dial the number he gave me. Hello, this is Jer. Oh, well, I I froze. I cannot believe I'm talking to him.

Thomas Road Baptist Church pastor, Liberty University President in the dynamic a lot like ours. And I said, uh, Dr. Fwell, my name's Erica Pacy. He goes, "Well, how can I help you?" He goes, "I've seen a little bit of your story here." Well, I've got a big building I want to purchase in Hot Springs, but I can't afford it. I said, I figured you've probably purchased half a Lynchburg. He said, 'Well, you have, son. We purchased it more than half. And I said, uh, I said, "Well, how do you how do I go about it?" And he said, "I'd offer him I'd offer him $1 million.

They're going to laugh at you when you walk go to those deacons and that pastor, offer them a million. They're going to laugh at you. Walk out of the room, let them get over it. Two years later, they'll probably call you back, offer you for about half the price." I he said, "Any other questions?" I said, "So that's it." He goes, "That's what I would do." I go, "Okay, that's what I'll do." So that's what I did. I offered him a million dollars. They laughed at me, giving you the fast version. Walked out of the deacons meeting.

Two two and a half years later, they called me back, cut the price in less than half. We got it for about 40 to 45% of what they originally asked. Oh my goodness. Bank lent us the money. That's a lot of miracles. I know. There's a lot. I remember you telling the story and u Yeah. I mean, series three, four, five miracles kind of right in a row there that made that possible just to raise them. You were still short of the money that you needed at that point. Yeah. And it took 750,000 and I hate being specific, but I remember all this like yesterday that the bank said we had to come up with before they would lend us the balance, right?

That's a lot of money. Wedding I mean listen, wedding rings came out, car titles. Oh my goodness. Oh yes. Keys to cars and the offer. It was I thought that's it's a wonderful life is it's like people just coming there and saying yeah we want to make this happen. They there would be no champion were not for that church service. People in the service just said and they gave 750,000. I mean we we had I can't even begin to tell you the things that took place in that offering to allow us to go to the bank and say we've got our 750. They actually gave me six months to raise the 750. So, you know, I'm not being there's more to the story than just one service, but that service was a a big portion of it. But anyway, yeah, here we are.

That's pretty amazing. I mean, and you're still kind of in the middle of this ministry growing the college and and looking visionizing, if you will, the possibilities. I've seen a few different, you know, buy boxes and plans and and visions for it. How would you characterize where you're at right now in terms of where you want to be? And listen, we are in a a place now that I have prayed for for for over 10 years. I mean, Lord, we need a breakthrough. We need we need the right people. We need, if I could just say it like this, I'm on this podcast, the fire, we need the Firestones of the world.

We need key people. We need board members. We need relationships. We need initiatives that are going to set us up to be able to to to purchase the buildings, to build the buildings, and property acquisitions and all of this. And so I believe where we're at at the moment in real time is we are on the cusp. I don't know if you read my president's letter today email today. I have not read it yet. We had faculty meeting to look forward to but in that letter I I I said you know the board has tasked me with now contacting an architect and an engineer to begin uh the beginning journeys of new facilities and and and property acquisition. So we're we're at a really great place right now. But this when I say answer to prayer, Chris, I mean I I have prayed because I I remember reading Jared Fwell's biography and they were at the point of bankruptcy and and Jerry Fwell fasted for 40 days.

Yes. And uh and as a result of that, God gave him a miracle that that really birthed Liberty University. Yes. From Liberty Baptist College. And so I think we are experiencing the first fruits. Yes. Of that kind of miracle. Well, one of the things I've noticed coming down here for the last, you know, year or two that we've been here is how everybody seems to understand the vision. You know, like people are saying like this is the way to to see life change in people. You have evangelism, you have baptisms, those things are going on. That's very impressive going on in the church all the time.

But it's also, you know, the tangible things of of loving on people, of of of having houses, having places for people to stay when they come, having businesses they can work in and that sort of thing. And I guess that's a good segue to sing. Okay. So, I've got you as a bivocational guy. And by that I mean senior pastor and president of the of the college, but you're more than even that. And that was another thing. I mean, you had you own several businesses. I think you oftentimes use the term passive income.

Yeah. It's not totally passive because I see you I see you and some of your sons in particular working on them. But, um, you know, the plates don't keep spinning unless you keep spinning them a little bit. But, uh, so you you've got that side of things going. And then I was in your yard, I think it was, when I noticed this banner or something out in the back that says Capacy for mayor. I don't what you ran for mayor at one point.

Um, and so I don't Let's Let's start with the with the um additional uh passive income uh um roles that you have or jobs that you have and then or businesses that you own and then talk a little bit about the political side. So, you know, the business has really came on the on my purview of responsibilities probably six years ago. It's it's a newer thing, but it's a dream that I always had. I always believed that I had this entrepreneurial spirit in me. Yes. Uh planting the church, starting a college, starting a coffee shop, starting a community center. Uh I love to start things. And I think that when this opportunity to purchase at first a a gym, a fitness center, yes, in the village, when that came available and just randomly was working out with my friend who owned that gym, he owned two gyms. This was one of them. And he said, "Hey, I'm looking to sell."

I remember that opportunity. I remember it was almost I mean, I I don't want to get spooky or anything, but I did feel like it was a a moment where God clearly said, "Eric, this is something I'd like for you to look into." you know, I didn't hear him say that verbally, but I mean in in a sense, but it kind of fit who you were. You're adventurist. You're entrepreneurial spirit, right? You I know all the capacities are athletes. Uh you know, and uh and so that that's exactly right. And so there was a lot of, you know, connection as far as this. It made sense and it it matched a lot of the DNA of our of our crew.

So the Lord opened the door for me to purchase that first building and first business, excuse me. And I remember, you know, my wife even, you know, honey, are you crazy? Are you going to pull this off? I mean, you you're already busy. And I said, "Well, honey, you know, one of the principles I've lived by is my my schedule is my boss. I live by a schedule." And that's that's how I'm able to get so much done. I I don't tell my schedule what to do. My schedule tells me what to do.

So, as I put as I organize my schedule and reorganize and rep prioritize some things to be able to fit a business and now a second, a third, a fourth, every time I do that, there's adjustments that are being made regarding priorities. And sometimes it it it it's usually never unfortunate for the for the most important things because they continue to rise to the top. But unfortunately, I do sometimes miss out on some of the things that I would love to be able to stop and smell the roses, but I I'll have time in eternity to do a lot of that.

So, I I do I do manage those things well. Uh but my purpose for that is not so that I can live somewhere else. I still live in the same place. I'm not moving. I'm going to live there my ent you have your motives and reasons why you do everything you should. Yes. And so for me, it's more the things you mentioned, Chris. It's I get to hire college students. My family has passive income and other incomes. I get to maybe give more to the church in college. I get to sponsor things and uh and and and you know, I get to give gifts out and birthday cards and anniversary cards.

And it's provided some income for me to be able to do more for other people and and for my family as well. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's step one. You said there were others I Oh yeah. You've got the Hogs. Uh is that fall in the middle there somewhere? Yeah. They got the food truck uh called Hogs. It's 5 years in. And uh we we I'm I'm a foodie. I love food as you know. Yes. And so that was a good that was just a fun outing for me and my son Joe who was going to be go to culinary school when God called him to ministry. And so he he runs that food truck. We have you know other students that that are you know the main employees of it but we kind of manage it. He manages it. Yes.

Then there's a locksmith two doors down from my house. Kind of a crazy thing. I went to buy the house and he said, "I won't sell you the house without selling you the business." And so we negotiated for one year, one year of negotiations. One year of just working through it. And finally, he got to a price where my banker said, "That's a deal." And I said, "I'll I'll" And so the Lord's given me that. It's been a blessing uh to to so many. And then um we have purchased a uh a franchise. Yes. Everbold. And EverB is a more of a superfood, a health food that will bring A lot of young people are going for that stuff.

My kids included. Yes. Especially anybody that's and your kids are all athletes and runners and lean and like mine and they, you know, they they don't mind. I like a balanced diet, you know. I like a burger that but I also enjoy the the those kinds of food. So, we're excited. I think that's going to be transformational to this city, too, because it's going to bring, you know, it's going to have it's not going to be just another burger place or just another pizza place. It's going to be one of a kind. So, we're excited. And that's so th those are some of the things that I've done.

And and the political side of it is ran for mayor two years ago, two and a half years ago. Uh lost I think about 300 votes. Uh we came close, look back on it, realize, man, made a lot of lot of mistakes towards the end. felt like that uh we we instead of picking up steam at the end, we lost some steam and it it it count I look at that as costing me the election, but then I also look at the you know the will of God and and for whatever reason he did not allow it to happen that time.

Yeah. Well, you know, I don't know how much of it it would have taken you away from your other roles, but I was certainly glad you you were available so providentially there. Um, it was and I think if if we were to do it again and it's on the table, we're talking I'm starting to have more serious conversations about a a second run and one that I think uh because it was so close. Yes. And and also just the timing and the dynamics of our city and things, but I haven't made that decision yet. So, just still praying. Okay. So, I we can't get you on the Firestone Files to announce you're running for mayor.

That would be incredible. You can have you back. we will have you back if the if that journey goes forward because that would be a ton of fun to do with you. Um so we've covered quite a a lot of ground. I think it's been uh it's filled out a lot of details I didn't even know. Um now we have today we have new new horizons. I know one of the big things happening here at Champion these days is called the dual language program and uh that kind of came I don't think I saw that on the horizon even a couple years ago but now how's that working out?

Yeah. No, it it you're exactly right. This was one of those Firestone meetings in the coffee shop type thing with a a man by the name of Sheimeus. Yes. from Brazil and he lives in Orlando. And uh God allowed Sheimeus and I to meet here on campus. He came to meet me and and to and to introduce me to this concept of uh Brazilians who are living in America who are looking to stay here for their education. Yes. And and and to have a visa that would give them the opportunity to to go to school to learn English.

Yes. because it's a it's a dual language track which includes obviously a lot of English but and and ESL program but a plethora of other courses uh that at the moment are all theological but we're looking at business and other other tracks hospitality in fact is one and so I flew to Orlando I said I I got I this guy can't be for real so I flew to Orlando to meet him his family his church his friends and I came back and thought I remember you talking about that meeting this was much better than expected It was like over the top. It was over the top. I realized that, okay, God, this is not just a uh, you know, some sort and I say this, you know, just tongue and cheek, right?

This isn't some sort of a undercover thing or this this I'm not talking about someone who's trying to pull one over. I realized uh and I thought that in the beginning, by the way, but I wanted to visit him. So, on my own dime, I just flew down. It was all confirmed through that visit. Yeah, it was confirmed. And since that day until now, we're up to nearly 600 enrolled in that program online. And they'll be here once a semester every student. So we'll get to see them, meet them, rub shoulders with them, connect with them.

Uh and then of course, you know, all of that was made possible because as that was happening, a large congre a large church in town uh has merged with our church. They had 12 13 people left in a 750 seat auditorium which we desperately needed space for the Brazilians to come and have their own campus. Yes. So what that church will become is not only another gospel campus but it will become the dual language track campus. Oh my goodness. Yeah. That's incredible. It really is.

And as you you may recall as we were touring the city when I was first talking with you and you were showing me around and I you you you went past that church and I said that's where my grandmother used to take me to church. You go, "Huh?" And then it came full circle to be uh available to us by God's grace with the congregations getting a little older and wanted to pass it on to a ministry-minded uh and excellent organization like Champion is. And and and uh it happened.

It happened. It happened. It's amazing. It really is. And I mean it, you know, if I was able to sit down with someone that would ask the question, you know, how do you approach a small congregation? Because I mean, in theory, there's more to this than just, you know, oh, that's nice for gospel light. I mean, I really believe that every empty, paid for church building in America needs to be filled, needs to have a purpose. Those buildings are there and they're all over the nation.

Well, as you know, that's big in my heart cuz having studied in Scotland and seeing the European um beautiful church buildings, you know, turned into museums or to community centers and so forth, I really appreciated your desire and your vision for talking to congregations before it's too late, before it, you know, there's no one left, right, to say, can we have the seed of the ministry that started this place carry on? because there's new life, new energy being brought in by uh by, you know, people that are inspired by the gospel. And so, and you said that really well. I like that. I I've never thought about that seed because that's so true. You I think what ends a lot of the conversations is when you don't recognize the value of the seed they planted.

That's right. because everything there is a seed they planted and the legacy that they have even though they're small and and even though you can critique why they're in the condition they're in. You can critique it or you can change it. Well, you when you showed me around the building the other day, um what struck me is just how much love they had for that building. You know, they just took immaculate care of it. Now, a little old school, you know, because you're not having to develop it with a robust congregation. And it's a smaller group, but they obviously love that the ministry and the seed that they had planted there.

And you're coming in, you know, with fresh vision, with fresh eyes is probably got to be a gift from God for them as well. So, it's kind of a mutual thing as far as I can tell. It is. And it helped that. And I think when you first came, I drove you by the Lake Hamilton campus. Yes. It helped that we had done it once a couple of years ago. Yes. So, this is the second time. And and now we have two others that have contacted us. And so it's going to be a while. I just I know by now it it's not a oh great, you know, let's just sign the dotted line, you know.

No, it takes a lot of relationship building, a lot of trust, a lot of care and concern. So we uh we are excited about potentially even putting something together for others that might be interested in hearing this part of our story as to how maybe it could apply to your story somewhere with merging with church. Yes. No, I'm fabulous. I wanted to start with both the DL and that that uh expansion of the ministry because I consider those real. I mean, they're they're successful. They're tangible. They're moving forward.

A couple of the other initiatives, some of them that I've been spearheading with you are still developing. They're still things that are experimental. And 10 years from now, we might look back on this conversation even mentioning them and say, "Why do you even mention it?" It went nowhere. But right now they have wind in their sales and uh it's I think it's worth at least mentioning a couple of them. I mean one of the one of the relationships that uh you know when I came down we developed together was the one with Judson and Jean Kroom and you've taken some trips with them now.

And um is there anything on the horizon there that is is you know worth talking about in terms of new endeavors? Yes. I I have great respect and admiration for Jean Kr, president of Justin University. He has become really not just a friend, but somewhat of a mentor to me. He's been doing the college work for longer than I have. And uh and we have similar visions and our colleges have similar dynamics. Yes. And I think that our hearts have been knit together. And so I was able to go with him to uh to the Museum of the Bible in DC.

Yes. and the Holocaust Museum and that that entire trip uh was bringing together higher ed uh you know universities, colleges that are looking to uh just advance their knowledge of the Bible and and uh and and and teach students the values of and the importance of the foundational yes documents and things about uh our our country and our spiritual values. Well, that as you remember, part of what I think God was doing in my life, you know, pushing me out of Trinity was putting me in contact with all these Christian leaders who already had dynamic ministries, but they weren't working together, weren't connected.

Yeah. And so I just I didn't know that you and Gene would hit it off so well. Actually, I was just one of those ones that this God thing. But you and I got to go together one time. That's right. Yeah. We went up there and and had some time with them. And uh yeah, it's just been uh extraordinary to see how God can unsettle you in a place and yet have bigger and better plans for you in terms of what you know the effectiveness of your ministry bringing people together. And I'm still looking forward to seeing how these might blossom in the future.

One more thing on that one just to encourage you about the future is we have already committed and partnered with Judson University on uh on next year. All right. taking a group of about I think we we're looking at 40 including students, staff and faculty and I think we'll be heavier on the staff and faculty prayerfully even the first time we go right on this trip but to join them and to become one of the uh universities colleges that joins them on this on this endeavor. So that's incredible. It's fascinating. I want you to go with me too. Yeah. Oh, that's great. I'm I'm super excited about that.

Situated on the Judson campus on the third floor of I don't know what that building is. There is an organization called TurningPoint USA and they have eight wings and the one wing that's situated there is called Turning Point Education now. Used to be Turning Point Academy. They just changed their name. Okay. And I didn't even know that. The head of the Turning Point Education is an old friend of mine. He was a chap He was a chaplain at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and Trinity College and I got to know him 30 years ago.

It's come full circle for me as I've uh been working with them on trying to start a freshman level program at various colleges, but really one college at a time um throughout the country. Uh Turning Point, what we call Turning Point prep year. And so I've introduced you to to Hutz Herzburg. He kind of shocked me when he came down here to meet you because he said, "I'm hearing a lot from Chris about this guy down in Hot Springs and I got to come see for myself." So, you had a a time where you kind of hosted him for a day. How How'd that go?

Oh, I I I I did it a lot like I hosted you the first time. We just literally and he wanted to We just went to uh of course we we visited our church, our college campus, the different campuses, Parkplace, even though it was not Gospelite yet. We I showed him that facility. We went to the village. We looked at the different businesses I owned and uh and just had a a tremendous time together.

And I I I didn't know for sure where it was going to go or if it would continue, but as you know, yeah, it went it went to step two. been a roller coaster ride in a way because one of the things that they've been doing is trying to to to get donors for this program and to get Firestone to write some curriculum for them and see if this would all come together into a real possibility. And then rather surprisingly, I think it was maybe four months ago, five months ago, seems like very short time ago, they got a donor that would cover the first iteration of Prep Year in the fall of 2025, right in Fort Worth, Texas at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

Now, I came to you kind of sheep sheepish at the time because this is my second year working at Champion. And Eric, uh, they they they kind of want me to kick it off for them, uh, if that's possible. And you were like, I don't know if I want to let this guy go. So, uh, yeah. So, Huts makes this presentation to us, you know, to me first. He's saying, "You think Eric would release you for a semester to help us kick this off? We've been trying this for three years now. we finally got the money and you're the guy, but I understand you're his guy, too. And so, how do we make this happen? And so, I said, you know what? Let's put a proposal together. I think it's going to need to be me continuing to be connected with Champion, continuing to be, you know, you know, I had some parameters around it, right?

And uh kind of sheepishly, as I said, you know, kind of went to you and said, "What do you what do you think about this opportunity?" And I think it's I think it's a unique I tried what what I tried to make clear was that there's only one start of prep year. This is it. Yeah. You know, you miss the window to get in, you know, to to influence and then as it develops, you know, you weren't the guy who was there at the beginning and and I'd been with him so long. I wanted to finish what I started, you know, and those types of things.

And I have to admit that, you know, you had to my mind you had pretty clear boundaries that that's going to be a hard sell. But as you heard the evidence and the opportunities and stuff and then you wrapped your mind around you and you said I think you talked to Huts, I can't remember the timing of things. You you started to say, "Well, maybe this is something that's worth continuing and pursuing." So maybe maybe you can help us process what you were thinking there. Yeah, I can. And I want to say two things about that. And these two things are something that I have uh I mean I'm gonna I'm gonna give you this kind of in in theory like this is a practice of mine as to how I came to these conclusions. Number one is how is it presented?

Yes. Anytime I'm given a proposal, whether it's to buy a business, uh, you know, to start a college, to I mean, however you look at the prop to to allow a full-time employee to release him for a a semester to to start a program. Anytime you're faced with that, it's how it is presented. Yes. And I want to say that to all you listening to the Firestone Files, you know, Chris did that in a way that was so professional and so well done and so humble and kind and considerate of of the institution he was working for and had given his loyalties to as an employee that I could not help it to consider it.

I mean, you there was no other way to say we're not shutting this down. We're looking at this. We're diving in. I mean, you've given me something to think about. Yeah. Yeah. So that's even if I didn't come across that way, that's what I was thinking. So I'm letting you behind. I'm going behind. That's that's Yeah, that's great to hear. I wasn't quite sure, but I was impressed by the apparent movement because it's the presentation. Well, I was I was in it for so long with with Hudson with Turning Point. It just seemed like a natural closure to that effort.

but expressing that to somebody who's not been in it for the same length of time who sees it more as a what is this foreign entity coming in but you had already had some good experiences with Huts and I believe Huts then wrote you an email that it was again I think I think you know HUS had has grown in his own appreciation for the fact that this has to be a partnership you know and um and I think you sense that and and uh we were able to to do this so let me give you number two though yeah that was one yeah it was cuz I love number two.

Okay. And I want to miss it. And that is that my personality and the reason why I think you and I have jelled so well and I'm not I don't know your past and and leaders in the past and presidents. I'm just speaking out of our relationship. Yes. I I don't I don't know the dynamics you've come out of. But I know this man. Listen, I am an entrepreneurial spirit in ministry as well. In other words, if it means we can stretch ourselves a little farther, get creative. Yes. and and partner with multiple organizations that have the same ultimate kingdom-mindedness. Yes. Let's do it. Why reinvent the wheel?

Why hold back? Yes. potential by by being selfish and saying, "Oh, no, no, you're you're my employee." No, that's not it's not always about me, my and I. It's about us. It's about the kingdom. So, my personality has always been, hey, let's give this a shot. Yes. I mean, the worst thing we could do is have to back up and punt, right? And and we may have had to, but we didn't.

Well, you know, that just confirms, you know, all those, you know, initial conversations we had and everything else because, as you know, had a few other job opportunities at the time, but the combination of my dad being in Hot Springs and Erica Pacy and his vision and his flexibility and I think that entrepreneurial spirit was so liberating for me. I just said, I've got to go on this journey with this guy for a while and see what the Lord might do with this.

Two two 60 year olds collided at a time in their lives where they're on their final lap. And I mean, I think the final lap's got 20, 30 years, right? Hopefully. But I think both of us realized at the same time that there was potentially a really good chemistry in these two men and their backgrounds and their families. And and that's kind of the whole conversation. Yes. is it collided at a time when I think both of us kind of saw it was time to maybe let go of of of just the same old same old and let's let's let's expand our horizons and see it's a risk.

Yeah, there's risk involved. There's Beth Beth was with us the whole way. I mean you were let me let me talk to Beth first. Let me ask Beth, you know, which I respected.

You know what what's what's you speak of Beth, there was a moment when I was really leaning to going a different direction and um you know you had once again made it you you you know put the red carpet out and said Chris we we want you here and uh and I think it was oh it was a phone call with my kids and one of my kids my son in particular made the case for champion you know and Erica Pacy and the minister And I go and then Beth looks over at me. She said, "Um, and I I'm a little surprised, Chris, that you're not giving your dad more consideration, too."

Harry, come on. And that surprised me because, you know, there's the standard, you know, professorship, job, you know, insurance package and all of that and so forth. And then there's this entrepreneurial risk-taking, taking off, you know, the shackles ministry that Erica Pacy represents. What are you going to do with the last 10 years or, you know, 20 years of your life, whatever God graces you with. And I sat on that for a day or two. I go, "Son of a gun." Yeah. I think God's called me down there. I love it. So, anyway, that was great. That was a great a great question, and I'm glad I got to answer it.

Well, thank you so much for your time here. There's so much more that we could go into the minutia on and maybe we'll get a chance some other time to do that. I'd love that if you I'd love to tell some more stories just and more and more we have a little more time to elaborate on some really cool things. Yeah. Yeah. We will we will do that down the road. But um for now, we'll just have to bring this to to a close, I guess. But uh thank you so much for your friendship, for your leadership, for your um way in which you handle your business and the church and your just your aspirational spirit. And so um this it creates a big wake and there's a lot of people who kind of float through that wake and I think um God's going to do some great things in the future with that. So So Amen.

Thank you so much and that brings us to a close of the Firestone Files. Thanks for uh for watching and do uh write us back if you have any questions or you want to hear more about these stories. Love to hear from you. That's it for now. Thank you. Thanks for stopping by to spend some time with me here on the Firestone Files. I hope today's reflections offered you some new insights and perspective on life. If you enjoyed the episode or found it valuable, I'd appreciate it if you'd take a moment to like, subscribe, and share it with someone you care about. I'd also love to hear your thoughts.

What resonated with you? What challenged you? Or what would you like to hear more about in future episodes? Drop a comment below or send in your suggestions to the email in the description. Your input helps shape where we go next. This has been Dr. Chris Firestone. Until next time, keep asking the big questions. And remember, the kingdom journey is always best with your friends. Further up and further in. Bye for now.